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TOPIC: I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil.

I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82595

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I want to say something on this thread because I have a pretty rare opinion amongst the Adventists. I know people are like, "OH NO PEOPLE ARE DEBATING! WHAT A HORROR!" But honestly I love debate and I love hearing the other side so if you don't want to hear more debates then don't read this. I believe abortion is ok. You can ask me any questions about this subject in a CIVIL matter. So here is my thoughts:

I love babies but I believe that women should have the choice to have them obliterated off the face of the earth (It's a joke okay). Not all babies, but the ones they have to be forced to hold in their stomach for almost a year. The pains and struggles they go through while they're pregnant are all very hard to go through. That's almost half a year gone from work or school just so they can give birth to a baby that they will have to throw up for adoption. I haven't even mentioned the money they lose from not working or not learning and from hospital bills. Abortion's average cost is 300-950 dollars (www.ourbodiesourselves.org/health-info/early-abortion-options/) while the cost of birth is around $3,500 per stay. A lot would argue that it's still killing life. In which they're not wrong, but I believe life has so much more than just being alive. Life is all about the relationships with others you have and the desires and goals you have. That's what is beautiful about life but when it comes to a baby in its womb, it has no relationships (Not even with its mother because it probably doesn't even know his/her mother is a thing) or desires. It's not really a life all it can do is kick and move a little. It is helpless but also clueless and lifeless. It's as helpless as a piece of bread is helpless. Some people may argue then that you could kill already birthed babies but there's no reason to kill them. You could easily give them up for adoption. You don't have to sit there in pain for 9 months and have to pay money anymore. You could easily just hand them over. Some people would still say that it's a future life. God would have been like, "That would have been John! John would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you abort and not allow John to live!" The problem with that is you could use that same argument for birth control. When you use birth control it's a future life. God would have said, "That would have been Mia! Mia would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you take birth control and not allow Mia to live!" The only difference is, yes, John who was pretend aborted would have been "killed" because John was alive and now isn't, whilst Mia wasn't alive ever. They always use the 6th commandment as an example, but yet, God condoned the killing of many in the Bible. He's allowing the death of someone right now and not putting a stop to it! God allowed David to kill Goliath, in fact, he gave David the strength to kill. This is not a debate to me. It seems very one sided for me.

Again, give me your thoughts on this because I love hearing both sides. I hate being enclosed with one idea and not giving the intelligent people on the other side a chance. I will probably respond once or twice to your arguments and then stop because I feel like I won't change anyone's mind anyway. I mostly made this because I like debating and hearing other people out.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82612

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Thank you SRNitro, I love debates too, I have been in every argument on Guide for the past 4 months

There is no such thing as perfect peace

And back to the topic I think Abortion is ok
Since Guide is blocking my post and I am unable to defend myself. I am innocent(Hinestly I really don't mind If you beleive me or not - It is the truth). MK I will very much appreciate if you check your facts before making rumors. I am Kwesi and Lisa is Lisa. 2 seperate beings.(Lisa is my sister)
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82615

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Yeah I don't know why debates are such a terrible thing to people.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82647

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Before we are born God knows us. And He already has a plan for our lives.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That is enough for me to personally believe it is wrong.

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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82648

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im a beekeeper wrote:
Before we are born God knows us. And He already has a plan for our lives.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That is enough for me to personally believe it is wrong.

Repeating what I said before:

Some people would still say that it's a future life. God would have been like, "That would have been John! John would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you abort and not allow John to live!" The problem with that is you could use that same argument for birth control. When you use birth control it's a future life. God would have said, "That would have been Mia! Mia would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you take birth control and not allow Mia to live!"

And something I added:

Well then it was in his plan that the little baby that should have died because the mother couldn't take care of him. Also the first part "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;" kind of proves my point about the birth control example. Should we not use birth control because we would be sinning against God? Doing this we don't allow a baby, a future life to form. Of course there are people that could have been born. There are teen girls who chose not to have babies at their age. Does God weep for the children that weren't born because teenage girls made the right decisions in high school?
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82656

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Ok, so I'm not educated on this topic (or any topic), but I think that I might be able to say something against mothers "obliterating their babies off the face of the earth" or whatever you said. :P

First off, I want to say that I am pro choice. I believe that the last time there was a debate like this, I was misunderstood on that point. But I am completely pro choice. I do not believe in forcing someone to do/not do anything.

Ok. Now as to the question of why I think abortion shouldn't be the go-to for moms.

First off, what you're basically saying with your birth control argument is that if someone doesn't have as many babies as possible, using as many chances as possible, God will not be pleased.

When you make the decision not to have a kid, you're not killing anyone. That's like saying, "Oh my goodness, he killed so-and-so, and they were capable of having more children, so he actually killed hundreds of people in that one person!"

I don't think that argument is valid, though I do see your point. It's a pretty extreme argument, however.

You also said that a person isn't really "alive" until they form relationships with people. Well, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do have an argument against it anyway.

Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't? And suppose you could go back in time, and you saw their parents contemplating abortion. Wouldn't you speak out against it? Wouldn't you say something like, "Please don't do this! You would be killing so-and-so! They'll grow up and we'll be really close!"

You see? Everyone is a baby at some point. Are you saying that when you were a baby, you weren't really alive? What about your mom or dad? I suppose it wouldn't have really mattered if one of them was aborted, 'cause they hadn't formed relationships yet. But then you wouldn't be in existence, would you? So I guess it does matter.

And now, as for the fact that God is ok with killing, as opposed to what he said in Exodus 20, you're wrong. I mean that in the nicest way possible, of course. God is always the same. He never changes. And, as you will remember, God didn't permit David to build the tabernacle, even though David was a "man after God's own heart." And, if you remember the story, the reason David couldn't oversee the construction of the temple was because his hands were stained with blood. God couldn't allow David to assist in the building of the temple, because David had killed and murdered people in battle. And yes, David did rejoice in the Lord and attribute his victories to Him. But you have to remember that David was an imperfect human being, just like all of us. God had to work with his faults.

Anyway, I probably have a lot more to say, but right now I'm really tired and not very coherent anymore. :lol:

And like I said, I mean this all in the nicest way possible. I like friendly debates. :)
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 3 weeks ago #82661

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emmy01 wrote:
Ok, so I'm not educated on this topic (or any topic), but I think that I might be able to say something against mothers "obliterating their babies off the face of the earth" or whatever you said. :P

First off, I want to say that I am pro choice. I believe that the last time there was a debate like this, I was misunderstood on that point. But I am completely pro choice. I do not believe in forcing someone to do/not do anything.

Ok. Now as to the question of why I think abortion shouldn't be the go-to for moms.

First off, what you're basically saying with your birth control argument is that if someone doesn't have as many babies as possible, using as many chances as possible, God will not be pleased.

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I think that it's not very logical to think that God is crying over babies not born and that haven't lived yet. Maybe he is, but I don't believe it's our job to make sure every baby that could be born, should be born because God would have loved him/her. I'm using that as an example. Using birth control, the baby which isn't formed really yet is helpless and innocent just as the baby in the womb is helpless and innocent. You just don't let it be born because the mom doesn't think she could handle the baby.
When you make the decision not to have a kid, you're not killing anyone. That's like saying, "Oh my goodness, he killed so-and-so, and they were capable of having more children, so he actually killed hundreds of people in that one person!"

I don't think that argument is valid, though I do see your point. It's a pretty extreme argument, however.

Well yeah. You're saying that the difference is one is murder and one isn't. Well again we have to think about the definition of murder, because I think of it as killing a life that has already formed with relationships and structure and responsibilities and desires.
You also said that a person isn't really "alive" until they form relationships with people. Well, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do have an argument against it anyway.

Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't? And suppose you could go back in time, and you saw their parents contemplating abortion. Wouldn't you speak out against it? Wouldn't you say something like, "Please don't do this! You would be killing so-and-so! They'll grow up and we'll be really close!"

I would speak against it because I KNOW the person. Let's say his name is Dunkey. Dunkey has formed relationships, desires, and because of that I love Dunkey. I love Dunkey because I have seen him grow and so have his parents. But the difference is that never happens. The baby hasn't grown yet. Yes of course it could grow into something but back to my birth control argument. It's not a life yet. It's just a useless little thing right now that has to be carried by the mother. It's kind of like a tapeworm that brings you down until it is taken down 9 months later. Not only that but the tapeworm costs so much to get rid of at the end of the 9 months. Yeah sure it can be forced fed and kick a little but it isn't a human life yet. It's just in the process of becoming a human. What makes a human is much more than it's alive. This is why I don't consider it murder. I consider it late birth control.
You see? Everyone is a baby at some point. Are you saying that when you were a baby, you weren't really alive? What about your mom or dad? I suppose it wouldn't have really mattered if one of them was aborted, 'cause they hadn't formed relationships yet. But then you wouldn't be in existence, would you? So I guess it does matter.

I wasn't a human really. I wasn't the parts of the humans that are the most important. I didn't have relationships, thoughts, desires, etc. That's what makes a human not the fact that you can kick a little. It does matter because I'm alive NOW! I'M ALIVE NOW AND TO GO BACK AND MAKE ME BE ABORTED IS TAKING AWAY MY LIFE THAT HAS ALREADY FORMED! I ALREADY FORMED! (Sorry I hate repeating myself nothing against you it's just. You know it's annoying to have to remake your point again and again. Nothing against you though) That's murder because my desires and goals have already been made and to take that away by going back in time is basically murder. If I haven't formed any of these things and I haven't really become human, I'm nothing yet. Again I go back to birth control. Wouldn't it be terrible for someone to go back and tell your parents to have birth control next time and not make you? That would be terrible cause that's taking a life that already formed. Now would it be terrible if you had birth control now and decided not to give birth to the next president? No it wouldn't be at all that's your choice and the same goes for abortion!
And now, as for the fact that God is ok with killing, as opposed to what he said in Exodus 20, you're wrong. I mean that in the nicest way possible, of course. God is always the same. He never changes. And, as you will remember, God didn't permit David to build the tabernacle, even though David was a "man after God's own heart." And, if you remember the story, the reason David couldn't oversee the construction of the temple was because his hands were stained with blood. God couldn't allow David to assist in the building of the temple, because David had killed and murdered people in battle. And yes, David did rejoice in the Lord and attribute his victories to Him. But you have to remember that David was an imperfect human being, just like all of us. God had to work with his faults.

Now this was your best argument and I had to think more about this one. I guess I have to go back to the definition of murder. What is murder and how can you justify "Do not murder" when God murdered probably millions during the flood. You can't really define what that is and I guess you just have to trust God. I trust God not to give women so much guilt when they kill the "tapeworm" that could become the next president. I mean if you say that the flood was done by God so it's okay that also wouldn't make sense because God is supposed to be perfect.
Anyway, I probably have a lot more to say, but right now I'm really tired and not very coherent anymore. :lol:

And like I said, I mean this all in the nicest way possible. I like friendly debates. :)

Yeah I probably lost myself during this a couple of times but that doesn't mean I have anything against you. I just don't like when people think that just because someone has a different opinion than you, that you're ignorant or dumb. That's a terrible way of thinking to think that someone is ignorant just because you think something else. It happens with femenism too. Although I disagree with you I do believe you're a smart person. This argument was pretty well stated and I don't believe that you're in the right here at all but that doesn't mean you're stupid.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82705

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Okay, so I'm a little confused as to what you're saying in some places in here, so if I'm not interpreting you correctly, I apologize. :lol:
I'm saying that I think that it's not very logical to think that God is crying over babies not born and that haven't lived yet. Maybe he is, but I don't believe it's our job to make sure every baby that could be born, should be born because God would have loved him/her. I'm using that as an example. Using birth control, the baby which isn't formed really yet is helpless and innocent just as the baby in the womb is helpless and innocent. You just don't let it be born because the mom doesn't think she could handle the baby.

This argument really has me confused. When I argued against it, it was because I was saying that I think that this argument is so outrageously...well...outrageous, that I really don't think it can apply. No offense. :)
The baby hasn't grown yet. Yes of course it could grow into something but back to my birth control argument. It's not a life yet. It's just a useless little thing right now that has to be carried by the mother. It's kind of like a tapeworm that brings you down until it is taken down 9 months later. Not only that but the tapeworm costs so much to get rid of at the end of the 9 months. Yeah sure it can be forced fed and kick a little but it isn't a human life yet. It's just in the process of becoming a human. What makes a human is much more than it's alive. This is why I don't consider it murder. I consider it late birth control.

Now, I have to admit that when I read this, I was not just a little angry. Fortunately, I waited until I had cooled off to answer your post, or I might have been a little less tactful... :lol:

I really object to your comparing a baby to a tapeworm. I'm sorry for saying this, but it really sounds like you haven't had much experience with babies. How can you look into those innocent eyes that look at you with such trust in them and say that a baby is useless until it can form relationships?

You are essentially saying that babies don't have relationships or desires at birth or in the womb. Respectfully, I disagree. There have been studies that prove that a baby develops the ability to recognize its mother's voice while still in the womb. Post-birth, the baby feels more secure when in its mother's arms or close to its mother because it knows her and her voice.

If that's not forming relationships, then I don't know what is! I mean, the baby and the mother have this beautiful, intimate relationship, because the mother has carried the baby for the first nine months of the baby's life! Haven't you ever realized why a baby feels so secure and loved when it's being held by its mom?
(Sorry I hate repeating myself nothing against you it's just. You know it's annoying to have to remake your point again and again. Nothing against you though)

I can totally relate, and I'm sorry that I was redundant in my debating. :)
I guess I have to go back to the definition of murder. What is murder and how can you justify "Do not murder" when God murdered probably millions during the flood. You can't really define what that is and I guess you just have to trust God. I trust God not to give women so much guilt when they kill the "tapeworm" that could become the next president. I mean if you say that the flood was done by God so it's okay that also wouldn't make sense because God is supposed to be perfect.

Okay, so I think you've got the wrong idea about the flood (no offense). God didn't murder anybody. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the definition for murder is something along the lines of "premeditated, willful killing without warning." In other words, it's planned, not an accident, and it's not like you tell the person you're going to kill them. Basically, you don't give them a chance, is what I'm saying.

But God gave the people so many chances! Noah preached to them and warned them for years! 120, if I remember right. I'm too lazy to walk over and get the Bible. But anyway. Point being, it wasn't murder. God told them what the consequences of their actions would be, and it was the people's own choice not to get in the ark. If God had just flooded the whole place and let everybody drown without warning, then that would have been murder. But He didn't. He gave them a choice, and it was their own decision not to take the opportunity God gave them.

And I know that @Bee brought up this verse, but I'm going to use it again. I won't quote it, since you can just look at Bee's post to read it, but what it's saying is that God knew us before we were born. In another verse, David writes that God "knit me together in my mother's womb."

Now, I don't know what those verses say to you, but to me, they completely rule out your argument that a baby isn't "alive" because it hasn't formed relationships and desires and whatnot. I already spoke against the idea that babies don't have relationships, but I also think that babies have desires. These verses tell me that God makes everybody inside their mother's womb.

What makes up you? There's more than just the physical, visible stuff, as you've pointed out. Well, the verse says that God makes us in our mother's womb. Doesn't it make sense, then, that it would mean He makes us, not only on a physical level, but on an emotional, relational, personal level? I believe that's the full meaning of that verse.

Haven't you ever heard someone say, "She's a natural!" Does that mean that this person acquired the ability to do whatever it is they are doing outside of the womb? No. It means that they were born with that ability.

I believe God creates each of us with the impulses towards certain fields of study and certain characters. I believe that He makes our characters in the womb. I don't believe that we acquire our characters later, once we exit the womb. True, our life experiences do sculpt and change certain of our characteristics, but that first blueprint, the cornerstone of all our natural tendencies is, I believe, created in the womb.

Therefore, that is the reason why I can't look at abortion as simply "late birth control," as you said. When you make the decision not to have a kid, you're not putting an end to anything. Nothing has been created, no new life has come forth, nothing. You're simply deciding not to have a kid.

But if you decide to abort a child that is already in the process of being created, you are putting a stop to such a wonderful, incredible unfolding story. You're destroying that character that God created, and there will never be another character like it. Because everyone that has ever lived or will ever live is different. So you're basically destroying a life that will never live again.

So to come back to the point (since I'm prone to straying from it :P ), I think abortion is morally wrong. I totally disagree with you, and I don't believe at all what you believe on his topic, but I respect your opinion, and I appreciate the fact that you're being calm about this. I really like having reasonable, calm, civilized debates with people.

So anyway! I just want to say that whatever I said in here was not meant in the least to put down anybody, and if you felt offended, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend, only to make a point. :)
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82721

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Thank you, emmy01, for saying what I wanted to say, and probably in a much more Christlike way as well!! My 10-month old nephew is sitting near me as I type, and there's no way that I could say he was a tapeworm. When his mum was pregnant, she used to drum her fingers on her belly sometimes, and after he was born, one of the first hand movements he did was to drum his fingers.

Ellen White speaks a LOT about prenatal influences, so there's definitely something that registers in the baby's brain.

Also, if you're saying (@Srnitro) that it's not murder cos they don't have any relationships formed, then you may as well kill all the introverts in the world, cos they don't have many relationships.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82724

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emmy01 wrote:
Okay, so I'm a little confused as to what you're saying in some places in here, so if I'm not interpreting you correctly, I apologize. :lol:
I'm saying that I think that it's not very logical to think that God is crying over babies not born and that haven't lived yet. Maybe he is, but I don't believe it's our job to make sure every baby that could be born, should be born because God would have loved him/her. I'm using that as an example. Using birth control, the baby which isn't formed really yet is helpless and innocent just as the baby in the womb is helpless and innocent. You just don't let it be born because the mom doesn't think she could handle the baby.

This argument really has me confused. When I argued against it, it was because I was saying that I think that this argument is so outrageously...well...outrageous, that I really don't think it can apply. No offense. :)

Well... I'm guessing you can't understand it? And because you can't understand it that just makes it outrageous? How simple can I make this (Maybe it is confusing it seemed logical to me though).

I agree with you. I don't think that God is crying over babies that weren't born because of birth control and that haven't lived yet. I don't think it's our job to make babies all the time so God can love more people. That would be outrageous right? What I'm doing is comparing it to abortion. When the fertilization happens it doesn't really make a baby but a future baby. I'm saying that I think they're basically the same thing. The baby in the womb is the same thing as the sperm cells who die before reaching the egg. They are both moving and wanting life but the sperm cell usually dies. The baby in the womb is basically just as inactive as the sperm cell. Sure, it can move, but that's about it. It really isn't life yet. A sperm cell is life that doesn't mean we have to try all of them. That wouldn't make sense because the humans are made in a way that allows them to die. We shouldn't worry so much about a sperm cell and we shouldn't worry so much about a future baby in the womb.
The baby hasn't grown yet. Yes of course it could grow into something but back to my birth control argument. It's not a life yet. It's just a useless little thing right now that has to be carried by the mother. It's kind of like a tapeworm that brings you down until it is taken down 9 months later. Not only that but the tapeworm costs so much to get rid of at the end of the 9 months. Yeah sure it can be forced fed and kick a little but it isn't a human life yet. It's just in the process of becoming a human. What makes a human is much more than it's alive. This is why I don't consider it murder. I consider it late birth control.

Now, I have to admit that when I read this, I was not just a little angry. Fortunately, I waited until I had cooled off to answer your post, or I might have been a little less tactful... :lol:

I really object to your comparing a baby to a tapeworm. I'm sorry for saying this, but it really sounds like you haven't had much experience with babies. How can you look into those innocent eyes that look at you with such trust in them and say that a baby is useless until it can form relationships?

You are essentially saying that babies don't have relationships or desires at birth or in the womb. Respectfully, I disagree. There have been studies that prove that a baby develops the ability to recognize its mother's voice while still in the womb. Post-birth, the baby feels more secure when in its mother's arms or close to its mother because it knows her and her voice.

If that's not forming relationships, then I don't know what is! I mean, the baby and the mother have this beautiful, intimate relationship, because the mother has carried the baby for the first nine months of the baby's life! Haven't you ever realized why a baby feels so secure and loved when it's being held by its mom?

I have had lots of experiences with babies. In fact I teach every 5th Sabbath the toddlers during Sabbath School. I love babies and they are cute. But I don't see how that's an argument. The fact that it's innocent and cute unlike a tapeworm has nothing to do with this. Oh sure it's cute and a tapeworm isn't but they both live in the victim for a large period of time and they both negatively affect them. The only difference is, yes a life can be born from a baby in the womb. But if you want to argue about life I would go back to my previous argument.

In your second paragraph you refute my argument about relationships and desires in life, in which, I found your argument pretty strong. Sure, it can recognize its mother's voice and I actually admit, that is a relationship. But the baby still has no desires or goals. It has the same relationship with a mother as a tapeworm has a relationship with a victim. They like their mother/victim because they give the tapeworm food! Of course they would be used to hearing the voice of the mother and victim. An unwanted baby is the same in this way. An unwanted baby, sure it has a relationship that is made up of, "Hey you give me food and I like your voice because I'm forced to hearing it all the time so I'm used to it, that means I want to be by you more because I'm used to it." It has nothing to do with love. That baby can't form love yet in the womb. It doesn't have the comprehension to love someone. It just understands that the voice he hears is what he's used to and it hasn't let him down yet.

In your last paragraph you say that the baby and mother have an intimate beautiful relationship but it isn't beautiful if the mother doesn't want the baby. The mother thinks of the baby as dead weight that brings her down. That relationship is ruined when a mother doesn't want the baby and would rather have it die. And that's okay. A dead relationship is not a bad thing. There are some times when people need to recognize that they are getting nothing out of a relationship and that they don't like being apart of that relationship. These babies don't even really love the mother.
I guess I have to go back to the definition of murder. What is murder and how can you justify "Do not murder" when God murdered probably millions during the flood. You can't really define what that is and I guess you just have to trust God. I trust God not to give women so much guilt when they kill the "tapeworm" that could become the next president. I mean if you say that the flood was done by God so it's okay that also wouldn't make sense because God is supposed to be perfect.

Okay, so I think you've got the wrong idea about the flood (no offense). God didn't murder anybody. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the definition for murder is something along the lines of "premeditated, willful killing without warning." In other words, it's planned, not an accident, and it's not like you tell the person you're going to kill them. Basically, you don't give them a chance, is what I'm saying.

But God gave the people so many chances! Noah preached to them and warned them for years! 120, if I remember right. I'm too lazy to walk over and get the Bible. But anyway. Point being, it wasn't murder. God told them what the consequences of their actions would be, and it was the people's own choice not to get in the ark. If God had just flooded the whole place and let everybody drown without warning, then that would have been murder. But He didn't. He gave them a choice, and it was their own decision not to take the opportunity God gave them.

You're skewing the definition of murder. When it says premeditated that means that they MEANT to end a life and they knew they were going to end it. God murdered them not on accident, he did it on purpose. God doesn't make accidents. Remember how God is omnipotent? God can't make an accident he does it and it's apart of his plan. Also it doesn't matter if they had a chance or not, that's murder either way. Murder is the ending of a life. God ended their lives! That's murder! You're saying if a person forced someone to bow down and worship them, and the person didn't worship him/her, then that person can kill the person without making it murder? What if I followed Baal and told you against your will to worship him or I would end your life. Well I warned you and you didn't do it so it isn't considered murder! You see how skewed that definition you just made up is? The definition is "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I searched up that definition and found nothing but my definition is the definition according to Google and basically all dictionaries.
And I know that @Bee brought up this verse, but I'm going to use it again. I won't quote it, since you can just look at Bee's post to read it, but what it's saying is that God knew us before we were born. In another verse, David writes that God "knit me together in my mother's womb."

Now, I don't know what those verses say to you, but to me, they completely rule out your argument that a baby isn't "alive" because it hasn't formed relationships and desires and whatnot. I already spoke against the idea that babies don't have relationships, but I also think that babies have desires. These verses tell me that God makes everybody inside their mother's womb.

What makes up you? There's more than just the physical, visible stuff, as you've pointed out. Well, the verse says that God makes us in our mother's womb. Doesn't it make sense, then, that it would mean He makes us, not only on a physical level, but on an emotional, relational, personal level? I believe that's the full meaning of that verse.

God did that because He knew David would live and David would be a great man. God is omnipotent and knows if a baby in the womb is going to die or not. God is not thinking about John who could have been born if the sperm cell reached the egg because he's omnipotent and knows that John isn't going to be real. It's the same with abortion. God knows this baby won't live so he's not going to cry over his/her death. Also you're kind of just assuming that the verse means God is forming us in an emotional, personal level but you can't really assure that. God could have just been saying that he formed us in a physical way. There's no proof that could say he was making us in a emotional level.
Haven't you ever heard someone say, "She's a natural!" Does that mean that this person acquired the ability to do whatever it is they are doing outside of the womb? No. It means that they were born with that ability.

I believe God creates each of us with the impulses towards certain fields of study and certain characters. I believe that He makes our characters in the womb. I don't believe that we acquire our characters later, once we exit the womb. True, our life experiences do sculpt and change certain of our characteristics, but that first blueprint, the cornerstone of all our natural tendencies is, I believe, created in the womb.

And I agree with you in this. I don't agree with your intent, although. Sure there are some characteristics that a baby are just born with. You can see this in left and right brained oriented people. That doesn't mean that we should say that babies in a womb are life. They just have impulses in their brain that will trigger later in life for them to be more adaptable in a certain area. That doesn't mean it has desires or goals and love and a ready brain.
Therefore, that is the reason why I can't look at abortion as simply "late birth control," as you said. When you make the decision not to have a kid, you're not putting an end to anything. Nothing has been created, no new life has come forth, nothing. You're simply deciding not to have a kid.

But if you decide to abort a child that is already in the process of being created, you are putting a stop to such a wonderful, incredible unfolding story. You're destroying that character that God created, and there will never be another character like it. Because everyone that has ever lived or will ever live is different. So you're basically destroying a life that will never live again.
During birth control you are putting an end to a sperm cell. The sperm cell has characteristics and data that could unfold to a "wonderful, incredible unfolding story. You're destroying that character that God created, and there will never be another character like it. Because everyone that has ever lived or will ever live is different. So you're basically destroying a life that will never live again." Can't you see the major similarities of a sperm cell and a baby? You could use your whole paragraph to be talking about a sperm cell! Abortion and birth control are both used to end lives. Maybe lives that would have been beautiful. That doesn't mean we should cry over it and pressure mothers. Sometimes you have to learn to grow up and know that everything is not beautiful and not everything gets to live. Sperm cells die as a baby in a womb dies.
So to come back to the point (since I'm prone to straying from it :P ), I think abortion is morally wrong. I totally disagree with you, and I don't believe at all what you believe on his topic, but I respect your opinion, and I appreciate the fact that you're being calm about this. I really like having reasonable, calm, civilized debates with people.

So anyway! I just want to say that whatever I said in here was not meant in the least to put down anybody, and if you felt offended, I apologize. I didn't mean to offend, only to make a point. :)
[/quote]

Same agree and also this is my last argument with you because... PHEW.. I am T-I-R-E-D! Maybe I'll change my mind and continue this debate with you Emmy but I am tired of typing so much. This literally took me almost 45 minutes to wright. Hopefully I changed some people's minds.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82748

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SRNitro wrote:
im a beekeeper wrote:
Before we are born God knows us. And He already has a plan for our lives.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That is enough for me to personally believe it is wrong.

Repeating what I said before:

Some people would still say that it's a future life. God would have been like, "That would have been John! John would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you abort and not allow John to live!" The problem with that is you could use that same argument for birth control. When you use birth control it's a future life. God would have said, "That would have been Mia! Mia would have stayed with me and I loved him! How dare you take birth control and not allow Mia to live!"

And something I added:

Well then it was in his plan that the little baby that should have died because the mother couldn't take care of him. Also the first part "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;" kind of proves my point about the birth control example. Should we not use birth control because we would be sinning against God? Doing this we don't allow a baby, a future life to form. Of course there are people that could have been born. There are teen girls who chose not to have babies at their age. Does God weep for the children that weren't born because teenage girls made the right decisions in high school?

You can tell for that verse that God loves us before we are born. So when someone kills a baby that is still unborn they are killing someone that God loves very much but God never got to experience that person chosing to love Him back. And also from that verse you can see that God counts us as a person before we are born.

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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82756

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My dad says that after abortion the would-be mothers feel guilt.
P. S. Babies do not form in the stomach. I hope to grow up to be a mother, not have my stomach eat my baby. You should know this.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82762

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Life is life and shouldn't be ended. God made it with a plan. Its as simple as that. Its like saying that if someone has no relationships, you can go murder them. U wanna do that? No! U wouldn't even support that, but u support abortion? Think man!
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82817

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LEMONwizard wrote:
My dad says that after abortion the would-be mothers feel guilt.
P. S. Babies do not form in the stomach. I hope to grow up to be a mother, not have my stomach eat my baby. You should know this.
In this context, stomach = abdomen.
All rules have exceptions, including this one.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82829

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After going through the lengthy conversation between Emmy and SRN, I have some constructive criticism for both of you. There were a few arguments that I didn't find very convincing, and here I will explain why.

Emmy01:
While your argument about babies making early connections is valid, it is not strong. Athough babies are born with certain tendencies, how their personality develops depends almost entirely on the environment they're in. Babies aren't born with personalities or talents(if they are, they probably have a syndrome); at most, they have natural tendencies that make it more likely for them to develop certain traits, but don't garentee them. Besides that, I think most people will agree that God doesn't pre-determine our personalities. That would almost be like predestination.
Another one of your arguments went like this: "Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't?" Sure I am, but if they had been aborted, I would never have known them, and so wouldn't feel any real remorse at their non-existence.

SRNitro:
From the way you talk about abortion, it seems like you are talking about aborting a baby that has been developing in the womb for some time. However, you implied in your first post that the purpose of abortion is to avoid having to carry a baby around for a long time. Perhaps you should clarify what stage of development you are referring to when you talk about aborting a fetus. A recently fertilized egg could be said to be as inactive a a sperm cell, but a fully developed fetus most certainly isn't. Life isn't the capacity to think (bacteria, for example, is alive), so a fetus, particularly one that has its own organs and a viable shape, is alive.
Also, your comparison of a fetus to a tapeworm is faulty, because under normal circumstances, a fetus is not parasitic to its mother, as a tapeworm is to its host.
Finally, when discussing murder and the flood, you pointed out that Google defines murder as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I find it interesting that Google explicitly states that it has to be human on human, since God is human. If you don't buy that argument, here's another: murder is UNLAWFUL killing. What God did in the flood was execution, not murder. Think of it this way. The people were convicted of sin, and the trial lasted 120 years. God did His best to get them to repent, but by refusing they plead themselves guilty. The people were executed in the most just and lawful way possible; not murdered.


If either of you (or anyone else) choose to respond to this, I've got a question for you. Why would a woman choose to have an abortion anyway? Obviously, there are different answers to that question, and I think that whether abortion is right or not depends on the answer to that question.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82869

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This thread has serious offended me.



1. The notion that birth control is the same as "killing" an unborn baby.

Listen. I am a girl. I am 16 yrs old. And I am sexually fertile. Every month I have my period. And in case you didn't know, every time a woman bleeds, an egg cell is washed out along with the tissue that was made to prepare the uterus for pregnancy. So, since I did not get pregnant, I was killing an unborn baby? Therefore, I should get pregnant so I won't be killing a baby? This is not logical in thinking at all. An egg cell and a sperm cell is not alive. A special cell that died before it reached the womb is not the same thing as a fetus! It is simply a carrier of DNA. You CANNOT compare birth control with killing a baby. It's completely illogical. Otherwise in order to avoid killing a woman would have to be constantly pregnant.

Also, think of it this way. Suppose I am attacked by a guy. He attempts the rape me. And it is also the time of the month that I happen to be fertile. If I happen to escape being raped, did I just kill an unborn baby? I could have carried a life! But I didn't. Therefore I killed a baby. How ridiculous.


2. The idea (blasphemous in my opinion) that because God told the Israelites to kill people, it's okay to kill unborn babies.

Every time in the Bible that God commanded to kill someone/nation/etc., is was because their cup of iniquity had filled up. Their sins had reached a limit. Not to mention, God specifically told them who to kill. Are YOU God to judge whether or not it is right to kill a baby? Has GOD specifically told you to abort ? NO! Do not dare to act as God and judge whom you may kill.


3. The idea that a baby is not alive because it cannot function as an adult.

This goes against the scientific definition of life. A goldfish is alive, but it does not have a intelligence as humans do. Is it therefore not alive? Completely illogical.
Also, babies DO have personalities!!
Ask my mom. Ask any mom. Every child they had was very different in personality. Even from BIRTH!! And not to mention, even babies as young as one week old can be spoiled. I know a couple who held their baby whenever it cried. And it would cry every time they set it down. Along with many other things. You have not had a baby and experienced it growing up from birth, so for you to assume that they do not have personalities is ludicrous
Also, my dad's earliest memory is from before he was even a year old. Just because a baby is helpless and cannot think as an adult does not mean it is not alive. If you said that in front of biologists and doctors they would ridicule you! It's ridiculous...
not to mention prenatal influences have a heavy impact on a babies character. That's why many times the second child is so calm compared to the first. The mother was more relaxed because they had gone through pregnancy once and knew what to expect.

I know of people that the mother tried to abort and were unsuccessful. The mother is now so thankful that they did not succeed. So is the child.

3. You said that there is no need to kill a baby once it is born because you can give it up for adoption. It would be a lot easier to take a knife and kill it than go through the trouble of all the paper work and etc to have it get adopted.


4. You apparently condone people having fun and doing whatever they want, and if they get pregnant to just have an abortion.

Also. Women who have abortions have a hard time getting pregnant later when they want to start a family. The uterus is a delicate organ. If it gets hurt even just a little bit it becomes hard to carry a baby.




I am not saying that if a woman is in danger of losing her life because of the pregnancy that she should may terminate the pregnancy. No child should be without a mother. But if you are so unhealthy that you cannot safely carry a baby, why did you get pregnant?! And I remember hearing a doctor say that it is EXTREMELY rare that this situation occurrs.



I think I covered all points
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82905

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SirGeneralCliche wrote:
After going through the lengthy conversation between Emmy and SRN, I have some constructive criticism for both of you. There were a few arguments that I didn't find very convincing, and here I will explain why.

Emmy01:
While your argument about babies making early connections is valid, it is not strong. Athough babies are born with certain tendencies, how their personality develops depends almost entirely on the environment they're in. Babies aren't born with personalities or talents(if they are, they probably have a syndrome); at most, they have natural tendencies that make it more likely for them to develop certain traits, but don't garentee them. Besides that, I think most people will agree that God doesn't pre-determine our personalities. That would almost be like predestination.
Another one of your arguments went like this: "Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't?" Sure I am, but if they had been aborted, I would never have known them, and so wouldn't feel any real remorse at their non-existence.

SRNitro:
From the way you talk about abortion, it seems like you are talking about aborting a baby that has been developing in the womb for some time. However, you implied in your first post that the purpose of abortion is to avoid having to carry a baby around for a long time. Perhaps you should clarify what stage of development you are referring to when you talk about aborting a fetus. A recently fertilized egg could be said to be as inactive a a sperm cell, but a fully developed fetus most certainly isn't. Life isn't the capacity to think (bacteria, for example, is alive), so a fetus, particularly one that has its own organs and a viable shape, is alive.
Also, your comparison of a fetus to a tapeworm is faulty, because under normal circumstances, a fetus is not parasitic to its mother, as a tapeworm is to its host.
Finally, when discussing murder and the flood, you pointed out that Google defines murder as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I find it interesting that Google explicitly states that it has to be human on human, since God is human. If you don't buy that argument, here's another: murder is UNLAWFUL killing. What God did in the flood was execution, not murder. Think of it this way. The people were convicted of sin, and the trial lasted 120 years. God did His best to get them to repent, but by refusing they plead themselves guilty. The people were executed in the most just and lawful way possible; not murdered.


If either of you (or anyone else) choose to respond to this, I've got a question for you. Why would a woman choose to have an abortion anyway? Obviously, there are different answers to that question, and I think that whether abortion is right or not depends on the answer to that question.

By the way I'm talking about any time during the whole process until birth (But I honestly would rather the mother kill the fetus in the earliest stages possible). Also, I'm comparing the tapeworm to a fetus in a different measure. I'm not saying that fetuses are just as parasitic as tapeworms (and if I did I didn't mean to). I'm saying that they are both just as helpless and lifeless. The tapeworm is a nuisance to get rid of and so is a baby. I understand that the fetus couldn't actually "kill" the mother but it causes a lot of problems. Then the last argument about "UNLAWFUL" killing. Well, I don't consider abortion unlawful killing. I consider it a smart and personal decision that should be put up to the mothers. A woman would want an abortion if she didn't want the child at the time or the child from this father. It's totally up to the mother. The mother would have a smart and civil reason on why to kill a baby I'm sure and it wouldn't be based off the fact that they wanted to kill that day. It should be up to the mother because the fetus, I think is lifeless even though it is a life. I think I'm stopping with this because honestly I'm tired of restating my points. I do like that you have brought up things I never mentioned, GeneralCliche. I won't respond to the threads in which they ask questions that I have already answered within one of my posts here. Good job, GeneralCliche on not asking some of the same questions.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82907

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one while i would never encourage it and think its wrong i do agree there are some instances when it is called for and that it should be the mothers choice, because well its her choice and some times people make stupid or bad choices, but we do not take away there right to make them.

two this thread is way to tense and serious so every one have some covfefe.
#make america covfefe again
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82920

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Kwesi wrote:
emmykitty wrote:
SRNitro wrote:
SirGeneralCliche wrote:
After going through the lengthy conversation between Emmy and SRN, I have some constructive criticism for both of you. There were a few arguments that I didn't find very convincing, and here I will explain why.

Emmy01:
While your argument about babies making early connections is valid, it is not strong. Athough babies are born with certain tendencies, how their personality develops depends almost entirely on the environment they're in. Babies aren't born with personalities or talents(if they are, they probably have a syndrome); at most, they have natural tendencies that make it more likely for them to develop certain traits, but don't garentee them. Besides that, I think most people will agree that God doesn't pre-determine our personalities. That would almost be like predestination.
Another one of your arguments went like this: "Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't?" Sure I am, but if they had been aborted, I would never have known them, and so wouldn't feel any real remorse at their non-existence.

SRNitro:
From the way you talk about abortion, it seems like you are talking about aborting a baby that has been developing in the womb for some time. However, you implied in your first post that the purpose of abortion is to avoid having to carry a baby around for a long time. Perhaps you should clarify what stage of development you are referring to when you talk about aborting a fetus. A recently fertilized egg could be said to be as inactive a a sperm cell, but a fully developed fetus most certainly isn't. Life isn't the capacity to think (bacteria, for example, is alive), so a fetus, particularly one that has its own organs and a viable shape, is alive.
Also, your comparison of a fetus to a tapeworm is faulty, because under normal circumstances, a fetus is not parasitic to its mother, as a tapeworm is to its host.
Finally, when discussing murder and the flood, you pointed out that Google defines murder as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I find it interesting that Google explicitly states that it has to be human on human, since God is human. If you don't buy that argument, here's another: murder is UNLAWFUL killing. What God did in the flood was execution, not murder. Think of it this way. The people were convicted of sin, and the trial lasted 120 years. God did His best to get them to repent, but by refusing they plead themselves guilty. The people were executed in the most just and lawful way possible; not murdered.


If either of you (or anyone else) choose to respond to this, I've got a question for you. Why would a woman choose to have an abortion anyway? Obviously, there are different answers to that question, and I think that whether abortion is right or not depends on the answer to that question.

By the way I'm talking about any time during the whole process until birth (But I honestly would rather the mother kill the fetus in the earliest stages possible). Also, I'm comparing the tapeworm to a fetus in a different measure. I'm not saying that fetuses are just as parasitic as tapeworms (and if I did I didn't mean to). I'm saying that they are both just as helpless and lifeless. The tapeworm is a nuisance to get rid of and so is a baby. I understand that the fetus couldn't actually "kill" the mother but it causes a lot of problems. Then the last argument about "UNLAWFUL" killing. Well, I don't consider abortion unlawful killing. I consider it a smart and personal decision that should be put up to the mothers. A woman would want an abortion if she didn't want the child at the time or the child from this father. It's totally up to the mother. The mother would have a smart and civil reason on why to kill a baby I'm sure and it wouldn't be based off the fact that they wanted to kill that day. It should be up to the mother because the fetus, I think is lifeless even though it is a life. I think I'm stopping with this because honestly I'm tired of restating my points. I do like that you have brought up things I never mentioned, GeneralCliche. I won't respond to the threads in which they ask questions that I have already answered within one of my posts here. Good job, GeneralCliche on not asking some of the same questions.

Excuse me, but have YOU ever been pregnant?
I am pretty sure none of as have been pregnant before
Sorry, my post came out the wrong way as usual


#MAINEMMYS #EMMYSQUAD
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82930

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Life- n. The existence of an individual human being or animal.
Once the baby exists, and it's heart is beating, it is life. Just because it doesn't have relationships, doesn't mean it isn't life. I am honestly disgusted and offended by this topic, for somebody to say that an unborn baby is just some useless thing that doesn't matter. God knows us when we are conceived in the womb. It's murder.
2 Timothy 4:7- I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.


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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82944

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SRNitro wrote:
SirGeneralCliche wrote:
After going through the lengthy conversation between Emmy and SRN, I have some constructive criticism for both of you. There were a few arguments that I didn't find very convincing, and here I will explain why.

Emmy01:
While your argument about babies making early connections is valid, it is not strong. Athough babies are born with certain tendencies, how their personality develops depends almost entirely on the environment they're in. Babies aren't born with personalities or talents(if they are, they probably have a syndrome); at most, they have natural tendencies that make it more likely for them to develop certain traits, but don't garentee them. Besides that, I think most people will agree that God doesn't pre-determine our personalities. That would almost be like predestination.
Another one of your arguments went like this: "Think of a person you really love. The person you're closest to. And imagine that they came really close to being aborted when they were a baby. Aren't you glad they weren't?" Sure I am, but if they had been aborted, I would never have known them, and so wouldn't feel any real remorse at their non-existence.

SRNitro:
From the way you talk about abortion, it seems like you are talking about aborting a baby that has been developing in the womb for some time. However, you implied in your first post that the purpose of abortion is to avoid having to carry a baby around for a long time. Perhaps you should clarify what stage of development you are referring to when you talk about aborting a fetus. A recently fertilized egg could be said to be as inactive a a sperm cell, but a fully developed fetus most certainly isn't. Life isn't the capacity to think (bacteria, for example, is alive), so a fetus, particularly one that has its own organs and a viable shape, is alive.
Also, your comparison of a fetus to a tapeworm is faulty, because under normal circumstances, a fetus is not parasitic to its mother, as a tapeworm is to its host.
Finally, when discussing murder and the flood, you pointed out that Google defines murder as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." I find it interesting that Google explicitly states that it has to be human on human, since God is human. If you don't buy that argument, here's another: murder is UNLAWFUL killing. What God did in the flood was execution, not murder. Think of it this way. The people were convicted of sin, and the trial lasted 120 years. God did His best to get them to repent, but by refusing they plead themselves guilty. The people were executed in the most just and lawful way possible; not murdered.


If either of you (or anyone else) choose to respond to this, I've got a question for you. Why would a woman choose to have an abortion anyway? Obviously, there are different answers to that question, and I think that whether abortion is right or not depends on the answer to that question.

By the way I'm talking about any time during the whole process until birth (But I honestly would rather the mother kill the fetus in the earliest stages possible). Also, I'm comparing the tapeworm to a fetus in a different measure. I'm not saying that fetuses are just as parasitic as tapeworms (and if I did I didn't mean to). I'm saying that they are both just as helpless and lifeless. The tapeworm is a nuisance to get rid of and so is a baby. I understand that the fetus couldn't actually "kill" the mother but it causes a lot of problems. Then the last argument about "UNLAWFUL" killing. Well, I don't consider abortion unlawful killing. I consider it a smart and personal decision that should be put up to the mothers. A woman would want an abortion if she didn't want the child at the time or the child from this father. It's totally up to the mother. The mother would have a smart and civil reason on why to kill a baby I'm sure and it wouldn't be based off the fact that they wanted to kill that day. It should be up to the mother because the fetus, I think is lifeless even though it is a life. I think I'm stopping with this because honestly I'm tired of restating my points. I do like that you have brought up things I never mentioned, GeneralCliche. I won't respond to the threads in which they ask questions that I have already answered within one of my posts here. Good job, GeneralCliche on not asking some of the same questions.
I appreciate the compliment.
Also, I just want to clarify that my discussion about unlawful murder was focused on the flood situation and not about abortion. I went off on a little tangent because I wanted to clarify that God didn't murder the people of earth during the flood. I didn't provide any transition for that, so it caused confusion. And I apologize for that. But just so we are clear, my discussion about unlawful killing had nothing to do with abortion.
All rules have exceptions, including this one.
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82965

  • shaday
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I believe abortion is up to the mother. In the end, it all comes down to her choice. I believe that killing is wrong but sometimes there are "valid" reasons for an abortion. If your mother was raped and got pregnant, would she want to keep the baby? Personally, I wouldn't keep the baby if I was raped. Other times there are complications that endanger the life of the mother. Yet in the end, it is still up to the mother. God gives us choice.
Shaday
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #82968

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shaday wrote:
I believe abortion is up to the mother. In the end, it all comes down to her choice. I believe that killing is wrong but sometimes there are "valid" reasons for an abortion. If your mother was raped and got pregnant, would she want to keep the baby? Personally, I wouldn't keep the baby if I was raped. Other times there are complications that endanger the life of the mother. Yet in the end, it is still up to the mother. God gives us choice.
If God gives us choice, then why did He give us the Ten Commandments instead of the "Ten Recommendations"?
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #83013

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bush possum wrote:
shaday wrote:
I believe abortion is up to the mother. In the end, it all comes down to her choice. I believe that killing is wrong but sometimes there are "valid" reasons for an abortion. If your mother was raped and got pregnant, would she want to keep the baby? Personally, I wouldn't keep the baby if I was raped. Other times there are complications that endanger the life of the mother. Yet in the end, it is still up to the mother. God gives us choice.
If God gives us choice, then why did He give us the Ten Commandments instead of the "Ten Recommendations"?

Even though God gave us a law to abide by, he still doesn't force us to be obedient. We make the free choice to obey, because we love Him. "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 It's just like how God gives us instruction to return tithe and offering, but he doesn't force us to give because "God loveth a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7. Of course, based on the choices we make, we show whether or not we truly love God.

Hope that made sense :)
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I think abortion is okay. Prove me wrong in a civil matter! Notice I said civil. 3 months 2 weeks ago #83015

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Quirky wrote:
bush possum wrote:
shaday wrote:
I believe abortion is up to the mother. In the end, it all comes down to her choice. I believe that killing is wrong but sometimes there are "valid" reasons for an abortion. If your mother was raped and got pregnant, would she want to keep the baby? Personally, I wouldn't keep the baby if I was raped. Other times there are complications that endanger the life of the mother. Yet in the end, it is still up to the mother. God gives us choice.
If God gives us choice, then why did He give us the Ten Commandments instead of the "Ten Recommendations"?

Even though God gave us a law to abide by, he still doesn't force us to be obedient. We make the free choice to obey, because we love Him. "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 It's just like how God gives us instruction to return tithe and offering, but he doesn't force us to give because "God loveth a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7. Of course, based on the choices we make, we show whether or not we truly love God.

Hope that made sense :)
Thanks Quirky...

That kinda brought it all together.

We have choice, but that doesn't mean that our choice aligns with God's will.

I like the way you said it. :lol:
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