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The Government 2 years 1 month ago #51424

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@ mylhu1011 - I disagree, What are morals based on if not for religions?

As Seventh Day Adventist and Christians in general, we attribute morality as coming directly from God. In other words, without a God, there can be no morality. To believe in Evolution is to believe in a world that is ultimately a result of pure chance, in which everything is the result of a random collection of matter that exploded from nothing. To believe in Evolution is to believe that there are no moral absolutes. Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists all have different understandings of morality.

Secular Governments enact laws that the majority of people agree are moral- but this does not mean that the laws are based on absolute morals. Secular governments don't recognise a single absolute moral code.

Think for a moment, if evolution is true- then it is not morally wrong to murder, steal or bash someone.

Morality is not separate from religion, because a God is the only possible source of morality, a correct understanding of God provides the only moral absolutes.

In Western countries, such as America, Canada, Australia, Great Britain and New Zealand, our laws are based on a Christian understanding of morality, however, in many Middle Eastern Countries the laws are based on an Islamic understanding of morality- one that is radically different to Western Christian morality.

While it may be true that Western countries recognise the same basic moral principles in their laws, this is because of their common Christian origin rather than humanity's common moral guide.
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The Government 2 years 1 month ago #51440

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mylhu1011, thanks for your reply.

And tim33, you talk all the words out of my mouth. I agree with you very much. It would be very unlikely that a intelligent race could think of morality if they evolutionized.

And one last thing. Morality is the thing that divides us from other living things, because animals don't know morality, BECAUSE, they were NOT CREATED in THE IMAGE OF GOD. But MAN, has MORALITY because he was CREATED BY AND IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.

Thanks for reading.
So let me sing for the love
Let me love for the lost
Let me lose all I have
For what I found on the cross
Let me trust you with my life
Let me live to give you praise
Lord, let me praise you
For the grace by which I'm saved
Lord, let me sing

- Chorus of "Let me sing" by Andrew Peterson
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The Government 2 years 1 month ago #51647

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tim33 wrote:
@ mylhu1011 - I disagree, What are morals based on if not for religions?

As Seventh Day Adventist and Christians in general, we attribute morality as coming directly from God. In other words, without a God, there can be no morality. To believe in Evolution is to believe in a world that is ultimately a result of pure chance, in which everything is the result of a random collection of matter that exploded from nothing. To believe in Evolution is to believe that there are no moral absolutes. Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists all have different understandings of morality.

I agree with you on this point. You are 100% right: as Christians, we should attribute morality to God. However, we should also consider the possibility that morality, given its derivation from God, originated before organized religion was even conceptualized. With this in mind, morality can be from God while also being separate from organized religion.
tim33 wrote:
Secular Governments enact laws that the majority of people agree are moral- but this does not mean that the laws are based on absolute morals. Secular governments don't recognise a single absolute moral code.

I beg to differ. If by a single absolute moral code you are referring to the Ten Commandments, then secular nations by definition wouldn't recognize it. However, they do have the capability of recognizing specific laws that are derived from intrinsically right or wrong values. As stated earlier, robbery, murder, and sexual assault, among other things, are each morally wrong in both religious and secular societies. Other modern transcultural/universal examples of immorality include slavery, genocide, torture, sexism, racism, murder, assault, fraud, and deceit, none of which require organized religion to understand that they are immoral to begin with. Even the Ten Commandments does not speak out against some of these, though I will still uphold the belief that God instilled in us a set of moral rights and wrongs from birth.
tim33 wrote:
Think for a moment, if evolution is true- then it is not morally wrong to murder, steal or bash someone.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with evolution...
tim33 wrote:
Morality is not separate from religion, because a God is the only possible source of morality, a correct understanding of God provides the only moral absolutes.

As stated above, organized religion and religious concepts in and of themselves are two different things. For example, I can believe that a higher power—in this case, God—instilled morality in us from birth, but that is separate from me believing that God/YHWH, Buddha, Brahmin, Allah, or any other deity caused morality to come about as a result of an organized faith with each of those respective gods at the head.
tim33 wrote:
In Western countries, such as America, Canada, Australia, Great Britain and New Zealand, our laws are based on a Christian understanding of morality, however, in many Middle Eastern Countries the laws are based on an Islamic understanding of morality- one that is radically different to Western Christian morality.

While it may be true that Western countries recognise the same basic moral principles in their laws, this is because of their common Christian origin rather than humanity's common moral guide.

Consider this for a second. If the Ten Commandments condoned murder, torture, and rape, would the West see each of these principles as just and righteous? I think not. We as humans know that to take one's life is wrong and to inflict pain upon another is wrong. Even if it could be justified through a sacred text, would all people of all religions think of those 'morals' as such based solely off their Bibles, Qur'ans, Torahs, Bhagavad Gitas, etc.? It all boils down to our innate moral compass, which according to Christianity is given to us by God. We know we have done something wrong unless we have been diagnosed with sociopathy. We have empathy for one another, which is separate from all religious values whatsoever. It's part of being human, whether or not that means observing or even being aware of religion.

As for your comment on Islamic morality, know that the Abrahamic religions are not so far apart as people make them out to be. I learned a few days ago from a Muslim friend that Islam technically regards the Torah, the Gospels, and the Qur'an as holy texts, even though the Qur'an is focused on more heavily because of its recency. When we think of the Middle East, we generally think of the radical Sunni Saudis and ISIS militants or the Shiite Iraqis and Iranians. Moderate Islam, however, is not nearly as harsh as countries which follow each tenet of their faction (and then some) to the nines.
Last Edit: 2 years 1 month ago by mylhu1011. Reason: Punctuation error
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The Government 2 years 1 month ago #51685

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You never want to live in a place where the state defines morality.
Speak up, judge righteously, and defend the cause of the needy and oppressed.
-Proverbs 31:6

#LetUsBeDissatisfied
#BlackLivesMatter
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The Government 2 years 1 month ago #51790

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@InspiredThinker- Of course you do (to a certain extent anyway) Doesn't the government decide it's morally wrong to murder someone and punish people accordingly? Aren't the concepts of Freedom of speech and freedom of religion basically moral judgements on the rights of individuals? The laws of democratic countries are based on the moral views of the majority of their citizens
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The Government 2 years 4 weeks ago #51827

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InspiredThinker wrote:
You never want to live in a place where the state defines morality.

Beautifully said. The government can make laws, but these laws can be absurd, and even unjust. We need laws based on morality that will make it fair for everyone and that everyone can be happy and live a happy life.
So let me sing for the love
Let me love for the lost
Let me lose all I have
For what I found on the cross
Let me trust you with my life
Let me live to give you praise
Lord, let me praise you
For the grace by which I'm saved
Lord, let me sing

- Chorus of "Let me sing" by Andrew Peterson
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The Government 2 years 4 weeks ago #51857

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tim33 wrote:
@InspiredThinker- Of course you do (to a certain extent anyway) Doesn't the government decide it's morally wrong to murder someone and punish people accordingly? Aren't the concepts of Freedom of speech and freedom of religion basically moral judgements on the rights of individuals? The laws of democratic countries are based on the moral views of the majority of their citizens

And usually the majority of the populations of most Democratic countries are Christians.
So let me sing for the love
Let me love for the lost
Let me lose all I have
For what I found on the cross
Let me trust you with my life
Let me live to give you praise
Lord, let me praise you
For the grace by which I'm saved
Lord, let me sing

- Chorus of "Let me sing" by Andrew Peterson
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The Government 2 years 4 weeks ago #51868

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As much as fantasy wise it would be nice to have an Adventist Government or at least a Godly one, By having freedom of Religion we are most honoring God. He gives us Freedom as Humans it is not our Position to try and take away that freedom.
Too many years trying not to rock the boat
I gotta quote, "I don't wanna rock the boat, I wanna sink it"
Ima just do it

KB. Ima Just Do It
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The Government 2 years 4 weeks ago #51923

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I made a somewhat detailed reply here earlier to tim33's post at the top of this page, but since I edited a grammatical mistake, I guess the moderators haven't seen it fit to approve it...

@tim33: The key there is that the people's majority opinion is what defines morality, not the state's.
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The Government 2 years 3 weeks ago #51964

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tim33 wrote:
@InspiredThinker- Of course you do (to a certain extent anyway) Doesn't the government decide it's morally wrong to murder someone and punish people accordingly? Aren't the concepts of Freedom of speech and freedom of religion basically moral judgements on the rights of individuals? The laws of democratic countries are based on the moral views of the majority of their citizens

Murder is illegal because we say it is, and send lawmakers to make sure there are laws against it. The concepts of freedom and speech and religion are defined as civil liberties, or natural rights, which come from the Plebians of the Roman Republic establishing laws to protect themselves.

We must remember that the right to worship God also includes the right not to. If the state can define morality, it can define anything.
Speak up, judge righteously, and defend the cause of the needy and oppressed.
-Proverbs 31:6

#LetUsBeDissatisfied
#BlackLivesMatter
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The Government 2 years 3 weeks ago #52074

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My original reply has been approved in response to Tim's comment, just FYI.
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The Government 2 years 2 weeks ago #52289

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@ InspiredThinker- Sorry, you're absolutely right- the key word is 'define'- of course no one wants the state to define morality- but we certainly want to impose certain morals.
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The Government 2 years 2 weeks ago #52327

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InspiredThinker wrote:
tim33 wrote:
@InspiredThinker- Of course you do (to a certain extent anyway) Doesn't the government decide it's morally wrong to murder someone and punish people accordingly? Aren't the concepts of Freedom of speech and freedom of religion basically moral judgements on the rights of individuals? The laws of democratic countries are based on the moral views of the majority of their citizens

Murder is illegal because we say it is, and send lawmakers to make sure there are laws against it. The concepts of freedom and speech and religion are defined as civil liberties, or natural rights, which come from the Plebians of the Roman Republic establishing laws to protect themselves.

We must remember that the right to worship God also includes the right not to. If the state can define morality, it can define anything.

If it can define anything, that doesn't sound like Democracy.

Plus, what can we say about the Israelite government? I'm talking about the ones of old, with King David, Solomon. When there was a God-fearing king, God was worshiped, but most of the kings of Israel, were bad, and they worshiped other gods. Check this out, www.ldolphin.org/kings.html.

What does this mean? Religion was influencing the government because of the character of the ruler.

What do you think?
So let me sing for the love
Let me love for the lost
Let me lose all I have
For what I found on the cross
Let me trust you with my life
Let me live to give you praise
Lord, let me praise you
For the grace by which I'm saved
Lord, let me sing

- Chorus of "Let me sing" by Andrew Peterson
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The Government 2 years 2 weeks ago #52390

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i don't belive so, Ellen White said that religon shoud be seprite from the Government :silly:
All have fallen short of the glory of God our penalty is death but thanks be to God he has made a way for us!

Elena :)
#BUNNYBUNNY #thebunnymovement
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The Government 2 years 1 week ago #52454

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Skite wrote:
InspiredThinker wrote:
tim33 wrote:
@InspiredThinker- Of course you do (to a certain extent anyway) Doesn't the government decide it's morally wrong to murder someone and punish people accordingly? Aren't the concepts of Freedom of speech and freedom of religion basically moral judgements on the rights of individuals? The laws of democratic countries are based on the moral views of the majority of their citizens

Murder is illegal because we say it is, and send lawmakers to make sure there are laws against it. The concepts of freedom and speech and religion are defined as civil liberties, or natural rights, which come from the Plebians of the Roman Republic establishing laws to protect themselves.

We must remember that the right to worship God also includes the right not to. If the state can define morality, it can define anything.

If it can define anything, that doesn't sound like Democracy.

Plus, what can we say about the Israelite government? I'm talking about the ones of old, with King David, Solomon. When there was a God-fearing king, God was worshiped, but most of the kings of Israel, were bad, and they worshiped other gods. Check this out, www.ldolphin.org/kings.html.

What does this mean? Religion was influencing the government because of the character of the ruler.

What do you think?

God blessed the Kingdom of Israel because everyone lived as He had commanded them to, so He knew they could be trusted with prosperity. However, there is no record of laws made by the government that made the Hebrews worship God. The problem is when laws are created that disallow people to choose.
Speak up, judge righteously, and defend the cause of the needy and oppressed.
-Proverbs 31:6

#LetUsBeDissatisfied
#BlackLivesMatter
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The Government 2 years 2 hours ago #52864

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That's the problem, I would like to mention that Moses, Caleb, and other early leaders, were, politicians.

A politician is:

"a person who is professionally involved in politics, especially as a holder of an elected office."

And what is politics?

"the activities associated with the governance of a country or area, especially the debate between parties having power"

or
"(from Greek: πολιτικός politikos, definition "of, for, or relating to citizens") is the practice and theory of influencing other people."

In fact, politics has many definitions, but we usually associate it with the "dirty work of politicians" who "are power and money-hungry dogs".

Today, politics is bad, but what about the times when it was good? When it was an important factor in human lives, and still kind of is.







We have to also define, what is a government?



Respond to that last question, and I'll see you next week. Thanks for reading, and have a good day.
So let me sing for the love
Let me love for the lost
Let me lose all I have
For what I found on the cross
Let me trust you with my life
Let me live to give you praise
Lord, let me praise you
For the grace by which I'm saved
Lord, let me sing

- Chorus of "Let me sing" by Andrew Peterson
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The Government 1 year 11 months ago #52975

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The government means the governing body of a nation, state, or community.
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The Government 1 year 9 months ago #55992

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Skite wrote:
@Smileygon mentioned that if Religion and Politics mixed, they would HAVE to pick a particular religion. Why is that? I would like to mention, that although the UK has selected a particular church, there is still religious freedom.

OK, so now you have to define :dry: what you mean my "mix." If the government were to establish an "official church," it would (obviously) have to pick a specific religion (and by extension denomination). If the government were to make laws that conform to a specific religion, it would, again, have to pick one.

Either way, the government would be favoring a specific religion. That's the key. See, we still have religious freedom today, but God told us in the Bible that it would be gone one day. If the government had favored a religion in the past, well that would be the obvious choice now.

Sadly, we know that the wall of separation of church and state will come down.
The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.
The Great Controversy, 588.1
From this quote, we can see that Catholicism will become part of our government.
Smiling for Jesus
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The Government 1 year 8 months ago #56183

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No no no that would be very bad :S
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
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The Government 1 year 8 months ago #56201

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Government of...???
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The Government 1 year 7 months ago #57037

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Mark 12:17- And Jesus answered and said to them,"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God' s." And they marveled at Him.
he church has its own duties to do, spreading the gospel(Acts 1:8), discipling believers(Ephesians 4:11-13) and teaching doctrine( Matthew 28:20) while the state/government can keep order and resist evil.
Romans 13:3- For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?
1 Peter 2:13-15- Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evil-doers and fr the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-.
The New Testament basically say's that each power has different duties on this Earth.
Matthew 6:24-"No one can serve two masters;for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon."
So no, I am not in favour of mixing church and state.
2 Timothy 4:7- I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.


-15 years old

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The Government 1 year 5 months ago #58691

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Mp137 wrote:
No, because in America, that would be contradictory to the freedom of religion.

It's already happening here.
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The Government 1 year 5 months ago #58697

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Here's why there's separation of church and state: Not everybody who lives in a country is the same religion. Because everyone has a right to worship any way they want, even if they're Christian. The government should have no say in what you do in your private life. There will always be corruption. The founding Fathers knew that. That's also why we have the second amendment; so that you can worship freely on Saturday or whenever, and when the government says otherwise, you can say otherwise.
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